Patty: Welcome to Sagecast, the podcast of Â鶹ӰÊÓ. I'm Patty Vest. Mark Wood: And I'm Mark Wood. This season on Sagecast, we're discussing mentoring stories with Pomona students, professors, coaches and staff who work closely together in the classroom, in the lab, and then in the field. Patty: Let me introduce today's guests. Alexandra Papoutsaki, Assistant Professor of Computer Science at Â鶹ӰÊÓ, and Grete Helena Kutt, class of 20. That were majoring in computer science and French. Mark Wood: Welcome Alexandra and Grete. Alexandra: Thank you so much for having us here. Grete: Hi. Mark Wood: It's good to have you both with us. So Alexandra, you're originally from Greece. Alexandra: Yes I am. Mark Wood: Grete you are originally from Estonia. Grete: Yes. Mark Wood: How'd you both find your way to Pomona? Alexandra: Well that's a long story. Grete: Sure. When I was looking at universities, I originally didn't even consider the US. Felt very far, felt very abstract. And yet when I looked into Pomona, and kind of the whole liberal arts education, I was very inspired suddenly, and also surprised that there is something that is a bit broader than the European that sets kind of a path in the higher education that you embark on in the first year, and that you have to just... They do everything and the way that your university has decided. Grete: And when I saw that here you can actually combine your interest as I have a gazillion of them, and that you can actually make something academically very rich out of it, it just felt like that would fit me much better. So that was like the kind of the first major draw, and then Pumona was also very generous with financial aid, and I was just like, "Why not? It's California. It's somewhere out there, but let's go for it." Alexandra: Okay. My turn it's a longer story. Patty: That's okay. Alexandra: So I'm a bit parallel though because I did study in Greece, and the system in Europe is very different than the system here. Like you kind of lock into a specific major. And I did four years of computer science, and I liked computer science, but I kept thinking like, "It cannot be that this is my only academic interest, right?" Like, "Why did I take all those classes in high school, and I liked biology, and chemistry, and sociology, and now I have to somehow stop doing that supposedly after 18 when I'm at the prime of my intellectual ability." Alexandra: So I considered going to the US for a PhD program. I joined Brown University, and the first week that I was in my office I talked with my office mates, and they were like... Both of them were saying, "Oh, we come from Liberal Arts Colleges." One of them coming from Pomona. I was like, "Huh? What is this Liberal Arts?" That was my first question, "What do you mean liberal arts?" Alexandra: And they gave me the whole spiel and it was like, "Wow. Do you mean that you actually chose what classes? Like they kind of force you to take classes outside of your major?" That sounded fantastic. I'm like, "Okay, I need to learn more about this thing. So I mean I was progressing within the PhD, I started liking teaching. First as a teaching assistant, then I taught my own class, and in the background I was taking seminars on Pedagogy [inaudible 00:03:25] and what are the most recent developments on deductics, and then I go to see Liberal Arts from a formal point of view, and seeing what are the merits of this type of institution. Alexandra: So when I was up for graduation, it was kind of a clear choice that I do want to be a professor. I love teaching. I love doing research, and I want to be at a small place. And Pomona had that kind of, I think still, nice kind of like sound to it. It was the first Liberal Arts College that I heard. Of course, it didn't hurt that it's in California. Same thing I had my share of cold in New England, and I was like, "Sure, I'll do that." I never looked back. Patty: And Grete, tell us how's been your transition to Pomona as an international student. [inaudible 00:04:09] tell us a little bit about how you found it. Didn't really know what Liberal Arts was. Not that you've been here, tell us a little bit about how that transition has been. Grete: That's a whole adventure in it by itself. I think first of all, Pomona did a lot to welcome us into... During our first year, I felt like we had a lot of different kinds of support groups, and the kind of orientation that we had for international students. There was a lot of different kind of means to understand what is the United States? What is Pomona? What is California? What is Liberal Arts Education? Where are we? Why are we here? Because of course there had been some major like cultural shocks. Grete: There have been moments where I really felt like I didn't know how to find my place in here, or how to find my way of being in this context that is kind of foreign, but that it is equally foreign to also a lot of people who actually live in here. So I realized that, especially in California, it is not a place where there's one defined let's say culture, or way of being. It's also a huge hub, and just a mix of people from everywhere, and also of different values. Grete: And so in a sense it's been interesting to see how Pomona kind of like makes us value that, that we are all very much appreciated as international students, and that we bring something to the classroom that is perhaps not there. Just because we have a different perspective on it and we have had a majorly different kind of experience, educational experience so far. So it's been definitely a journey, and there have been ups and downs, but I deeply appreciate that we have this kind of systems like ISMP for example. The mentors that we have, the international student mentors that we have. Grete: Also I have an incredible host family who has helped me a lot, which I don't think they have this system anymore, which is unfortunate. But I also have this kind of my tiny family in here who are also welcoming me always, and helping me a lot whenever I just this kind of logistical stuff that you normal just need someone who is here, and who knows how these kind of things work. Patty: Sure. Grete: So these aspects of Pomona are the ones that as an international student, I appreciate a lot. Mark Wood: So obviously you both found your way into computer science at some point. Can you trace that back to any point in your past? Was there an aha moment when you realized this is what I want to do? Patty: Alexander shakes her head? Alexandra: [crosstalk 00:07:10] Oh yeah. That's what happened after high school. And then yeah. I made it work. No, it was not... I did not have much of a choice. I made that choice. It seemed that it was exciting. It was a new field. It was not something that a lot of people were doing. So I felt that there is a lot of promise. But because it was four years of it for me it was more of a question of, "Within computer science, what would I like to focus on?" Alexandra: And eventually since I wanted to continue to grad school, it was... I kept going back to the question of, "I don't want to be kind of siloed into a single thing. I want to be more interdisciplinary." And then human computer interaction, which is my research field felt like, "Okay, it does actually allow me to stay rooted in computer science, but it allows me to communicate with people from cognitive science, from psychology, with design, like a lot of different fields that came together." Plus it's been a while that I've been in the position that Grete is, and I had that aha moment. Grete: Yeah. I think for me it's interesting, because I think vastly my startup starting position was like, "Choose anything, right?" Pomona versus [crosstalk 00:08:21] you did lik- Mark Wood: That's a lot of options. Grete: Exactly. Starting and being like, "Okay, how do I... What is in it for myself?" For me, computer science was kind of just a trial thing. I was just interested. I was curious, of course. I came here to try out as many different disciplines that I can, because I can not do that back home. So I grabbed the opportunity, and the first intro class I took was fun. I was like, "Oh, wow." Actually I missed that, because I came here with the idea that I was going to do social sciences, like PPE which was... It's kind of a Pomona specialty as well, or something very particular about Pomona. Grete: And then when I was in the computer science class, I was like, "Oh, actually I kind of appreciate this way of the problem solved. Like the effect of it." That kind of idea that you have something, you don't know how to approach it, and you don't know... You don't even know what it is all about. Like the problem at hand. Let's say you have this algorithm, or this end goal that you are... That is in front of you, and... How do you even start thinking about it? Like how to make sense out of something that you really cannot make sense out of it. That's the first place. And when you end with... We programmed this cute, I think it was like an Asteroids Game, or something like this. Grete: And when you end up with something that you can see the result of, and you're like, "Oh, I just built it." And like four months ago I didn't even know what is, I don't know, Java. It's just kind of inspiring to see that you can make this progress. But it definitely wasn't like a clear choice. I think it was also very much the result of... Like when we did the research, for example, over the summer that I saw that it's not just programming, it's not being enclosed in your office coding from eight to five. This is kind of what I had in mind when I was thinking about computer sciences. Grete: And when I met Alexandra when she came to Pomona, I was like, "Oh, wow, there is... Actually, there are so many different things in computer science, and it's way broader, and there is all this human aspect to it, and that's why I also feel like I was very much supported by this idea that it's a diverse discipline actually, and it's very... It enables you to dive into this particular path that you'll find that this kind of like sparking, this igniting something in you, and feeling like, "Oh I actually really want to understand what is happening finally when humans are using those computers." Because, it's like computer by itself doesn't... It's nothing, right? It's all about what do we do with it? Alexandra: I think what you are describing is really what brings a lot of students into it. It might be that curiosity that you have, I have a problem at hand. I don't know how to approach it, but there is something rewarding the more you kind of dig into it that you start understanding what's going on. You start figuring out your own solution, and it's liberating to know that there are multiple ways that you can do it. Alexandra: It's not like a one answer that fits all of it, and it can be frustrating along the way, and discouraging, because it requires technical skills. It might require math and so on. But I think the rewarding aspect of having something tangible, like I built that thing, I built the program that does that. It's very satisfying along the way, and that's what keeps people going, and it's like bait after bait. Grete: And I think it's even... I felt personally that there was... In my own life I could apply those kinds of- Alexandra: Pressure. Grete: ... mindsets, and I felt like my own life enhanced kind of my own problem solving in, I don't know, personal relations and so on. It was also about kind of I could solve, and use those techniques in trying to make more sense out of my own life, and kind of understand what is actually a problem and what is not, for example. Alexandra: Which is interesting, because I'm thinking often people say, "Does computer science fit in a liberal arts environment? Right? And you can definitely see that our students do learn how to think critically. Do learn how to think in a wholistic way of a problem. And it's quite nice when we teach classes that they go beyond that, this is a tiny technical problem and it's like, "Okay, we are building something that will have implications on society," right? Alexandra: So Grete you've taken three classes with me, and along the way we've moved from let's have the basic building blocks, all the way to now you're about to graduate. Let's start thinking of where you're going to work, what kind of implications that will have about the products that you're building. All those ethical considerations. They're really ingrained I think within the major that we have. And it's great to be at a place that students love these conversations. Alexandra: It's not like just give me a problem, and that's it. Make me think of why that problem matters. Make me think of why my solution will have certain components in it that will make a difference in the lives of people, right? What if I work on software that will dictate if someone will have [inaudible 00:13:30] in local jail. So it's a lot of big questions that our students will have to deal with. And I think Liberal Arts Education hasn't better prepared eventually then if they were at a big research school. Patty: [inaudible 00:13:44] Can you take us back to when you guys met, and how that now that you've taken three classes... And we can talk about the research project also now that's coming. How'd you guys met, and how that relationship- Alexandra: You were here in the fall of 2017, right? You were my first class? No spring 2008. Grete: That was spring. Yeah. Alexandra: So second semester that I was here, and that it was your second year? Grete: Yeah. Alexandra: And that was the second time I was teaching data structures. Grete: Did we meet when you were here for the... When you were a candidates still? Alexandra: No, I don't know- [crosstalk 00:14:16] Grete: Because I remember that very well. I remember very well when you were giving your presentation. That's when I was like, "Oh wow. They're like-" Alexandra: I see. Grete: First of all, young women who want to teachers. I was like, "Wow, that is a phenomenon. I need to know who this person is." Alexandra: Nice, I didn't know that. Grete: And I remember your presentation, that... Alexandra: Yeah. So I gave my [inaudible 00:14:35] presentation, and then a year later we talked during the class, and I was looking for students to join my summer research project, and this is how we got in touch beyond the class. I was like, "Oh, would you be interested?" I think you were still also trying to find your- Grete: Yeah, I was still- Alexandra: "... place within computer science. Grete: Exactly. I was considering and looking at different paths on what is actually computer science and there's kind of all these questions that we had. And then during this summer... Yeah, then I guess we met for the research, right? And we had like a- Alexandra: Yeah. I mean you completed the class and then we started immediately. Grete: We had the... We received the SAP award. So that was what I think the first thing that we work together adds, right? There was just the SAP application kind of thinking about what we would like to do, and that's how it started. Yeah. Alexandra: I can't talk more about that. It's like our research. Mark Wood: Yeah. Please do. Patty: Please. Mark Wood: Please tell us about- [crosstalk 00:15:31] Patty: Tell us more. Mark Wood: Please tell us more about it. Grete: The whole story. Alexandra: [crosstalk 00:15:34] Grete: Well I'm just thinking back now, now that I'm thinking back to when we actually started. I mean first of all, I was intrigued by the whole eye tracking idea, because Alex and I had been working with it before, and already when she was giving them, I was still... When you gave that candidate a presentation or something, I was still what? A freshman then, I guess. Alexandra: Yeah. Grete: Yeah. So I was just going around just to any kind of event. And I was like, "Wow." There was such a nice moment. And then I was like, "Oh, this eye tracking." It was kind of this whole idea of human attention, which was like I was in this key word that really stuck with me and I was like, "Okay, what's about it? What do we do with human attention in-" Alexandra: Computer science. Grete: "... computer science?" And then when we got more concrete about the SAP idea and the whole proposal, we had... Some ideas came from Alexandra. So you proposed the idea of using eye tracking too, and perhaps some collaboration in some collaborative context. And then we tried to get it down to something more specific, and something more kind of a smaller scale. The tangible project- Alexandra: It started I think with my experience during my PhD with eye tracking, figuring out where someone is looking at, and that typically for computer scientists is my [inaudible 00:17:04] and I'm building a tool, I'm figuring out where someone is looking at. It's someone else's job to figure out what that means, and what to do with it. Or like maybe perhaps I'll help with building a user interface that will adapt based on human attention. But we don't really dig into those questions per se. Alexandra: But once I came here, suddenly I realized students like Grete have all these amazing interdisciplinary background. We can start saying, "Can we do something interesting with it?" So the idea of dual eye tracking, like what happens if you have two people that are aware of each other's gaze in a remote context, because that's one of the problems with remote work, right? It's pretty nice to work from home, but suddenly you don't have your coworkers around you. You don't have this support system, and you don't have the awareness of what are they doing. Alexandra: So there are all of those problems with remote collaboration of how can I stay aware of each other and I look at you while we talk like gaze is a very powerful signal. So what if somehow we could take the eye tracking that is happening, and trying to figure out the gaze of an individual, and we transmit that now from one computer to another. Think of working on Google docs, where you're collaboratively writing a document, and suddenly you can be aware of each other's gaze. Alexandra: We had this question of how does this affect behavior? And there was some research beforehand that looked into references, like people for example, become a bit more concise. There no reason to say, "Look at line nine at ward three," you can say that, "Look at this." Which is pretty similar to what you would do in reality- Grete: Because you are showing the other person- Alexandra: ... which is you would point, right? Like you would point- [crosstalk 00:18:39] Grete: ... where the partner is looking at, so you are like- Alexandra: Yeah. You become far more- Grete: Exactly. Alexandra: ... direct with it. Grete: You always know where you are in a sense, in this collaborative space that is created by the software. Alexandra: And yeah, we focused on writing specifically, because we had this intuition that I as a researcher get to write all the time remotely with coworkers. Grete goes back home, she has an assignment, or something like that, works away for a weekend. What do you do when you're not in the same place? So we started with a survey. So we started talking with researchers, and faculty, and students online to see how much actually people do right, right now remotely and it happens actually quite a lot. And amongst students a ton. Everyone works on assignments, and essays together. Grete: Like google docs has become like a normal thing right now. Patty: Yeah. It is ubiquitous. Grete: Yeah, exactly. So it's very... It has become so normal that the question is, "How." But since it's so normal, how do we... How can we enhance it, or how can we still make the collaboration that happens over this also something that is a little more organic, and a little more... Perhaps not even closer to you, because it's not like we can ever replace the whole [crosstalk 00:19:54] located work that where we actually- Alexandra: [inaudible 00:19:55] Grete: Exactly. We cannot. Whatever we have when we sit together. Like of course this is irreplaceable, but there are ways in which we can provide other means of achieving the same coordination and awareness of each other. So we propose this, since the prior studies had also looked into this in other contexts like pair programming, and some of them just visual learning experience and et cetera. Grete: So we were mostly interested in academic setting in this kind of... Basically our setting, because we were here, it was summer in all of Pomona, and then the most logical kind of context that we had was like academic writing collaboratively. Yeah. Alexandra: Yeah. And it was... I mean it was a team effort for sure. There was a Grete, and there were two more students, Kevin Lee and Ethan Hardacre, that worked with us for that SAP project. So it started with technical also contributions of how can we build such a system. So that's definitely like what you would expect from a computer scientist. And there were a lot of technical issues of like, "Okay, how do I go and take one's gaze with a device that we don't even know if it allows us to take the gaze? And then we transmitted, we visualize it. Alexandra: But then it quickly turned into a user study. We brought 40 people, we had them do in pairs tasks. And then the questions started becoming of like, "Does it have an effect on a collaboration?" This is the novelty and then the whole research point of, "Okay, I built something. Is it useful? Does it make any-" Grete: What changes? Alexandra: Yeah. What changes exactly. What does it bring? And it did bring, it was actually quite impressive to see all the findings that we had. So you want to talk about that? Grete: Yeah well- Mark Wood: How do you measure that? How do you... Grete: Yeah. That is the question, like how... What is important to measure in the end, and what can we measure? Because in the end there are so many things that happen in a collaboration process, and it's very... It's a whole feel on its own, and we are a computer scientist. How can we make, or how can we approach it? What we measured was basically mostly we wanted to see what kind of level of interaction people have. So there are... Of course, there are very many different styles of [inaudible 00:22:10] help writing together, and when you work with someone, it really depends on the two people who are working together what comes out of it. Grete: However, what we were interested in was the kind of how tightly they were basically working together. Like would it affect... Would it make people more interactive? Basically since you have this kind of what we were kind of expecting, or hypothesizing, is that you have this common space and common references also. Because you are not just seeing the same thing but you're also seeing where the other person is, in this space. It's a very- Mark Wood: Can you describe kind of how it works? Grete: How it looks like. Yeah. Alexandra: What does a person see- [crosstalk 00:22:50] Patty: Because it's not like FaceTime. They are seeing the same thing. Grete: Yeah. No. We had different conditions first of all. So the baseline was just what basically would be at the equivalent of Google docs. Just like you see that the same text, and everything is synchronously edited but no other additional augmentations there. Then the second one was when we had the gaze, and the gaze is a supple... Well [inaudible 00:23:13] different kind of visualization. So how would you... That's a whole other [inaudible 00:23:17] refill actually is how would you picture that gaze. Grete: It has to be subtle enough so that it's not distracting, yet it needs to indicate something and it needs to be somewhat intuitive. That's like the whole kind of HTA approach. It's like how do you make a person feel like they can understand it without any explanations, or any additional information that it's just like you see it, and it's obvious. It's clear. So what we... We tested different kind of shapes, different kinds of colors. And that was like a whole prior like pilot study that we did on the visualizations, and then we basically gathered information from there, and decided the final one, which was basically... How do you describe it? It's- Alexandra: Think of highlighting maybe a few lines of the paragraph that you're looking at. So if I were looking at something greater, I would see the paragraph that I'm looking at, highlight it with some kind of transparent color. Like, think of some transparency of it. Grete: Probably like supple kind of. Alexandra: It indicates both the lines that you're looking at, but also around the word that you're looking at. Of course, we're not super accurate with eye trackers, right now that we could be you're looking at the precise word, but you have a sense of- Grete: I think word is actually fine. It's like if it's a long-[crosstalk 00:24:34] Alexandra: Around it if it's a long word. Sure. If it's okay, no. But yeah... So that's what we're doing. Like we're around that paragraph. So you have that one. We also indicated whether there is overlap, which is quite interesting to see if your gaze, because you cannot see your gaze, you know where you're looking at, but you don't... There's no reason to somehow tell where you're looking at, because then you start chasing your gaze, it's actually pretty interesting. You're like, "Okay, where am I looking at? Where am I looking at?" And you're not doing your job, right? Patty: [crosstalk 00:25:02] Alexandra: So whenever what you see... Like whenever Grete's and my gaze would be overlapping, that would change colors. So suddenly we know that we're looking at the same area. And it's quite interesting to see how people, because of that small signal, it's not a huge difference. They start being okay like let's work together. And the task that they had was we would give them a long text, and we would ask them to summarize it. Alexandra: So you could think people are saying that, "Okay, I'll summarize the first paragraph, you summarize the second paragraph, and we're doing something totally split and in parallel." But the moment that the gaze feature was on, they're like, "Oh, let's work on it together." It doesn't mean that the quality of the collaboration in terms of speed gets any better, because you might actually get slower, because you spent so much time now- Patty: Working on it together. Alexandra: ... vetting everyone. But it could be that it's getting better in terms of the result. And it definitely increase the perceived kind of level of satisfaction that they got out of the collaboration, because, "Oh yeah, it's not that I was working with someone out that I don't know anything about them. We were working together, and that kind of made me feel more connected with the person." So it definitely increased shared awareness, which was what we were hoping for, and we actually did find. Alexandra: And Grete mentioned the two conditions that we had like the extra ones. So we gave them the option to deactivate if they wanted that feature, we wanted to see, "Okay we forced you, maybe you don't like it," and some people did not like it. And those were the people at the moment that we took that away, they were, "Okay, now I want to do my thing, and you do your thing." So definitely there are different styles I think, when it comes to collaboration, and writing is actually, if you think about it, it's kind of an intimate process. Alexandra: Sometimes you want the time to think, you really want the time to write without feeling that someone else is looking at you. So we would not imagine that this tool would be there throughout the writing process. But there are always cases when you feel like, "Okay, we have done independently our work, now we come together to kind of agree upon the final product, and this is when it does make sense to introduce that shared gaze." Because otherwise I feel like people might be thinking if they hear about it, or that it would be annoying, or I would feel like I'm being watched the entire time, right? Grete: Yeah. And what... Just to add on that, it's just what was... I think was funny and just interesting was when we actually took the gaze away, and those people who had been saying, "Oh, it's so distracting," or they didn't like it, or they just felt like they would prefer not to have it. But then there were several proportional amount of people who were like, "Oh, I actually miss it." Grete: So it's interesting. Also for me, it was just this process of enabling people to see collaboration in a different way, and then go back to what we have right now, and then be like, "Okay, what is the difference?" Alexandra: I like it and I miss it. Grete: Yeah, exactly. And it's kind of like creating this need that people don't know that they have. Alexandra: That they have. Yeah. It's quite novel. It's very new. Grete: Exactly. So that is- Alexandra: And then you'll always feel weird, and... I don't know if I want to touch it, but once I touch, actually I might like it, now that you took it away. Grete: Exactly. Patty: In the study, could they see the gaze? Could they also see what the other person was writing, or just the gaze? Alexandra: Yes. Grete: Yes. So it was like a whole space. Like a writing space that they were together, because they could share the document, all the time. If they highlighted any texts, they could see that as well. So it was all shared. It was like really like- Alexandra: Like Google docs. Grete: Yeah. It was- [crosstalk 00:28:32] It was wholly- Alexandra: Exactly. So it was synchronously updated. You would type something, I would see it immediately. So it really feels like... Especially if you're on audio, or video call, it really feels like it's as close as it gets with face to face interaction. Given all that you're not in the same room. Patty: What are some of the future applications that you hope to see with this work? What were your expectations beginning, and based on your results, what are some of the hopes that you- Alexandra: So definitely we had the question of will it have an effect on the collaboration? It was not something that anyone else had seen. People... Even building a system that allows it had not done it. They had found ways to kind of approximate, but technically what we did was pretty impressive by itself. But then we started... We've been working since then on those different kinds of questions that came out of it, which is we're not focusing right now on collaborative writing. Alexandra: We're focusing more on collaborating, problem solving and the shape of games is fun I think for people. But we do have questions, for example of, "Okay what happens when you have a communication channel?" And there are a lot of theories out there from communication side that are, if you're on audio, versus if you're on video, versus if you're chatting. It's definitely a different medium, and it definitely affects the way that people collaborate. Alexandra: But because gazes is, I'd say novel thing, no one has looked into the combination of them. And this is exactly what we're doing right now. We're running a user study after we've built a new system that people solve together mysteries and as they're solving them, we're trying to see if the gaze signal somehow changes the way that they interact. And eventually it leads them to, I don't know, more correct conclusions. And does it matter if they are an audio plus gaze, or if they're just chatting, or if they're chatting and seeing each other's gay.So we're trying different combinations. Alexandra: So in general we're approaching it, one research question after another. But I think in the long run, there are a lot of questions about remote collaboration, and I keep going back to them, kind of the question of the workspace is changing. Remote work will become more and more prevalent, and all those problems that we've talked about, especially with the idea of shared awareness, will be there because you won't have the face to face interactions. So we need to come up with ways to somehow mitigate those problems. Grete: Definitely. And another kind of a higher level aspect is also the... What was interesting for me was the visual aspects of collaborations. Something like writing, it doesn't... It's worse, right? We will just write words, but it's actually... Once we entered this collaborative mode, and even with something as text-based as writing, it is still highly visual. So I think that is what was surprising for me, and what I think has a lot of feature and implications to perhaps go and research even more. Grete: What is the importance of this human gaze in this collaboration? Because it's a huge research field, and people are doing interesting things, and I think the kind of implications, especially for the future work, or I imagine that most of you know who are... No we are... Those who are graduating now, we will be... A lot of us will be working remotely, or at least some parts of it, or there will be teams working remotely, so we all need [inaudible 00:32:07] did our experiments, and the whole research was on pairs, which is very specific kind of a collaboration mode. Right here, it's me and you. That's it. Now there are whole other set of questions that arise when we- Alexandra: Teams. Mark Wood: [crosstalk 00:32:22] Grete: ... combine more people and when we... How can we... Is there any way we can create the same effect, or how could it be done? So I think that's a whole other kind of bulk of research that is not... There are still things that are being done, but it's... Especially with gaze sharing and what we did for example, specifically in our research that is a whole undiscovered field still or so. It's very exciting. I would love to just know where we are like it's let's say in 10 years. Alexandra: I hope I could keep you here. Patty: Just a post- Alexandra: [crosstalk 00:32:56] Patty: PostBack. Alexandra: PostBack yeah. Patty: Just open a postBack. Alexandra: For life, yeah. Patty: Post post postBack. Mark Wood: Did you use this in your own collaboration? and if so- Alexandra: A lot of- [crosstalk 00:33:06] Mark Wood: ... what was you. Yeah- [crosstalk 00:33:08] Grete: I think it- [crosstalk 00:33:09] Mark Wood: [crosstalk 00:33:09] your personal experience feedback into this too? Alexandra: So we definitely spend a lot of time working remotely. The two of us, like a lot of time being on Skype, or on Slack, or on those- Grete: Because I was- Alexandra: ... like writing together. Grete: We finished the SAP in the allocated time that was like by 10 weeks. But then after that we continued throughout the whole summer where I was in Estonia, I don't even know where you were. It doesn't matter. Alexandra: In Greece probably. Patty: Not Estonia. Alexandra: Not Estonia. Grete: And then I was studying abroad so the bulk of the research and the paper, the data analysis was all like remote. So I was... I actually proposed... I remember I proposed it because I think there was a research paper that did that, right? Like using your own system to write the newspaper- Alexandra: To write the paper. Yes. Grete: And the I was like, " Oh, we should sue that." It says that we would need like a lot of main tech support for our system. Alexandra: Yeah, we want to be able to do it. But it was pretty interesting, and definitely we do exactly what we're writing about. We do work remotely a lot and it will happen again. And it will happen again over- Grete: And it's something that we've missed ourselves. Like I feel like when I was... When we were especially the final stage of writing, which was basically what we simulated in our research, is this phase when you already have everything you have... The bulk of the work is there. Now it's about making it concise. You had those 10 page limits. You need to... You had the time pressure as well, which was all something that we make people to work on their time pressure as well. Grete: So there's all those circumstances make you really... You have to collaborate really efficiently, and very, and you also have to understand each other very well, because remotely it is a lot about like, "Okay what-" Alexandra: A lot of challenges. Grete: Exactly. What do we have to focus on? What needs to get done? What is okay? What is not and, and where are we? So I felt like that's something that I missed myself as well, because there was huge late documents that were just like... They had gazillion comments on them just like, "Oh my God. Where are we in this process?" It's just like... It is a very complicated process, especially research. Alexandra: Yes. Grete: Writing research. Alexandra: But it worked. Grete: It worked. Yes exactly. Alexandra: It did. Patty: So It worked so well. Alexandra: Yes. Patty: You presented it at conferences. Alexandra: Yes. Patty: Tell us about that. Alexandra: Yes I should because I'm very proud of her. That doesn't happen very often. Grete: I remember that was something when we started, I remember how you were kind of presenting the initial idea that you had and then I was interested, I was like, "Oh that's sounds interesting, and I think we should go for it." And then you were just mentioning the fact that the... "Well in my dreams, we could publish it or we could at least submit it to you Chi-" Alexandra: Yes. Grete: "Which is the greatest or the major conference in HCI." Alexandra: Human computer interaction. So yeah, that was my fault, because I was thinking, "It's my first time working ts Pomona-" Grete: [crosstalk 00:36:05] was saying that it's not going probably happen- Alexandra: Because it was a high goal. Patty: You had to put it out there for it to happen. Alexandra: It did happen. I am thankful to the universe and the higher powers that helped with that, and to the students that made it happen. Yeah, it was the first time. My first summer here. I knew that I picked very good students, but I did not know if we will manage to build a system, run a study with 40 people, analyze the data, write it up, all those things- Grete: Its a short time. Alexandra: ... in like four months. But I think that it was just because we had a great team, and everyone was working a lot of hours despite not being here. So we did submit it at Chi. And then around- Grete: November. Alexandra: November or so I got a phone call from Grete being super excited about- Grete: Even in the call. Alexandra: ... "We got the first result of the reviews." The reviews were very positive. They gave us an opportunity to rebuttal, correct any misunderstandings. She handled that. I wish I could handle it very well. It was like, she didn't get stuck on criticism. It was like, "Okay, you didn't understand this thing. Let me tell you exactly what we meant by that." It was amazing. And Grete works like a prob. Yeah, it was beautiful. She addressed that. And then we heard that it was accepted and the conference was in Glasgow, Scotland. So we went together in was it May- Grete: May and that's [crosstalk 00:37:27] Alexandra: Which was amazing by itself because Grete was volunteering, finishing classes, giving the presentation. I want her to give the presentation as the lead author of the paper, and she did spectacularly. She actually said that, "I'm an undergraduate student." I remember people being like, "Oh." Grete: What are you doing here? Alexandra: It does happen. And people would come to me after we're saying, "Are all your undergraduate students like that." I was like, "Yeah, they're good." I mean she's very good. Yeah, they're smart. They can do it. It was amazing. You can definitely see that they know how to speak, they know how to ride there, they know how to give presentations. It's not an abstract idea. Liberal Arts Education does work, and it's pretty nice I think to get to go out there, give a presentation and hear feedback by other researchers and see that your work is valued and that generates immediately okay, there's definitely more interest. Alexandra: We need to follow up with more research questions, and we've been doing this. Grete was gone for a semester in France, but she's back and it's my last opportunity the senior year to get the most out of this collaboration. So we have more students that we're working with that... Yeah. Patty: You can collaborate remotely. Alexandra: Yes. That's the whole- Grete: I think that the conference by itself is a huge experience, and not many undergraduate students get to do that, and there were those ribbons that were given. What kind of position you have and you're like, "Author and so on." And then they were like... There was like a special, I don't know how many. Probably you can count them on one hand how many undergrads were at the conference. Grete: So it was interesting to be there and feel like, "Oh. I'm kind of not supposed to be here, but I'm still here," and feel like you are respected. And at the same time that you are exposed to all of this research and meet people whose papers you have been reading the whole summer, and now seeing the same names, and knowing the big names, and then suddenly being like sitting- [crosstalk 00:39:30] Alexandra: We went have lunch with a very big researcher, and we've read the paper from this person. It's like, "Wow." Grete: It's just feels surreal to actually see them and discuss what are they doing right now? What is the current state of the research field itself. And also just being inspired by the postgraduate students and professors. Yeah, it was a really fun, and I think very rich experience overall. It was just a perfect, kind of like a cherry on top of everything- Alexandra: [crosstalk 00:40:06] Grete: It's just nicely concluded everything I've ever done, because it was really like a full experience of research from zero to Chi. Alexandra: To Chi yeah. It is impressive to have someone that works throughout the process. And I mean like you actually worked on conceiving the idea. I had a vague idea of what I wanted to work on, but I did not have exactly what are the metrics, what are they hypothesis were coming. It was spectacular to see Grete. I started with, "Here's 10 papers that I want you to read." And within a week she was like, "Here's another 40 that I found what's going on?" Grete: And because I had no idea what I was supposed to do. Right. I had no idea what- [crosstalk 00:40:46] Alexandra: She was going- [crosstalk 00:40:46] Grete: The whole research model that I had was [inaudible 00:40:47] I was like, "Okay, well I'll just go and do like [inaudible 00:40:53]." And there was a lot of extra. And I think- Alexandra: You are spectacular. I kept telling people, and they were like, "That seems like an [inaudible 00:41:02]." And I was like, "No. I don't want it to be. This is an amazing summer." Grete: Yeah, no. It was definitely almost like a simulation of the whole computer science mindset by itself, right? It's like, "How do you make something out of something that you really don't know?" You don't know the field. You don't know what are actually the most, let's say the questions there right now in the air. I mean, of course Alexandra knew those. So of course that's how I could kind of get some sort of step ahead and kind of understand where are we heading out? But building it up from scratch, understanding what is going on, finding your own way in this, and finding your specific kind of point of interest. Grete: I think it was very... It just taught me a lot about what is research, what is computer science research and what is... And the fact that as an undergraduate you can do that. It's not some kind of abstract idea for when you're... Once you apply for a doctors or something. No, it's, "I'm here, and I can do it, and then we can go to Chi with it, which means that it is appreciated. And we are welcomed as researchers." So that was fantastic. Alexandra: Yeah. Very capable. Mark Wood: So on a more personal level, what have you learned from each other? Alexandra: I wish I were [crosstalk 00:42:28] Back when... Yeah, when I was your age. I wish I were you. It's amazing. I mean for me I really like how kind of disciplined and organized Grete is. That was spectacular to see that. Okay. I gave you a list of 10 papers and you came up with an annotated document. I don't know how many pages you had of notes. And I was like, "Why don't I do that? I keep having those good ideas and they're lost, right?" Alexandra: I wish I had done that. So she was very good in organizing and kind of doing the busy work while doing the busy work. So at the end it felt like, "Oh, we've already done all those things. We already have our notes. We already have our questions laid out." So that was a phase in terms of meeting afterwards, and going over the notes and being like, "Okay, fantastic. You've read those things. There are those gaps in literature. We can actually answer those things." Alexandra: And just the fact that being an undergraduate student and not being afraid to give a presentation in front of hundreds of people that you know that they are faculty and researchers that have doing it for a long time. That was... It's inspiring to be honest. It's very inspiring to have students like Grete. And I think that is exactly when people ask me, "Why do you want to come to Pomona?" You kind of talk in abstracts about, "Oh, I've heard that it has fantastic students. Right?" I do know what are the majors over Liberal Arts Education, but then it makes it concrete and it's like, "Okay, that's why I'm doing the job that I am doing." Alexandra: So I think that's what I learned that, "Okay. They exist." They make it totally worth it and it's fantastic, because I do think that, that's one of the benefits of being in an educational environment. You never stop learning. Like I do teach them, but I do learn from them. And it's very nice and I feel like this will keep me young for the years to come. The idea of like, they will show me the newest technologies, I will have the background in the research, and we'll learn from each other. Yeah. Patty: Oh, it's so- Grete: I don't know what to say. I'm just [crosstalk 00:44:24] right now. You can just kind of shake me like this. Alexandra: I know. Grete: I think it's very true. The whole process has been very much like back and forth. It's not like I'm one telling the other, or kind of... It has been very organic I feel like. It's very much of a feedback for you laying some foundations and giving the kind of direction. Me kind of picking it up, and trying to see what else can we make out of it, or kind of adding my own ideas. And I think that is what I have appreciated the most is this kind of very equal kind of work that we're doing. And it's very much of a... We're a team and not just like a professor and the student doing whatever the professor is telling them. So I think that is something that has enabled us to go very fast and then get to accomplished a lot. Alexandra: And there's a reason, right? Do you need to be excited about the work that you're doing? I don't want to treat it as a job that I'm hiring students to do something that is a menial job that I could do myself, but I don't have the time, or something like that. I want them to have the buy in and feel that this is their intellectual property at the end of the day, and that they can go and present it and be like, "I thought about that." I built that system and this is beautiful. And to have a team of students coming together like Kevin, if an undergrad, they are altogether working. It's just beautiful to see that work happening. Grete: And I also think one thing that I definitely have learned for you is kind of also standing for yourself, and also appreciating, and kind of recognizing that you can do things and you are like, "You're heard as an undergraduate female computer science student. You're like, "It's no like you are in some sort of a weaker position." Although you are of course and especially as an international student. Grete: I feel like there have been that times that I've been going to Alexandra being like, "I really don't know what I'm doing. What is this all about? I just feel lost," that, "I feel like I don't know my place in this, because it's not easy." And just like Alexandra has done is that she has always encouraged me to apply for all sorts of awards. Like when we... Even when we went to Chi, we applied for... Or I applied for the- Alexandra: CRA. Grete: CRA, no. That was- Alexandra: Another one. Grete: ACM that was ACM- Alexandra: She has applied form many. Grete: That was ACM level award, which is specifically for women in computer science, or in computing fields. And to attend conferences. And so thanks to that scholarship I could go to do classical and everything. And so I don't think I would have ever done that. Now we applied... Thanks to Alexandra I applied and got nominated by the department for the CRA award, which is very... I would not have just there to do that, because I feel like I... Of course I do things but I don't feel like I cannot see them from outside, and at times I don't know what's the worth of it. Grete: And then Alexandra has always reminded me that it is a huge award and then I... It should be recognized and that's something that I really appreciate, because I feel like I would not have done it myself. I would not have... I would have just been fine with research but also be recognized that takes you to a whole other level. It feels like you're validated as a researcher as well, and as a female, which is still a minority pretty much. Alexandra: I know. Patty: Especially in the STEM field I'm imagining that's very common. Grete: Yeah. And computer science is still... We're getting somewhere but it's still very much a male dominated field. So it's great to bring this change, and to feel like I have role models as Alexandra and that I am also inspired, and kind of encouraged, and just pushed as well in the kind of... I know that I can do a lot, thanks to the fact that Alexandra has told me like, "Let's submit this paper to Chi." I would not have even thought about that, and yet we could do that. So that's incredibly inspiring. Patty: Grete I wanted to ask you about your double major. Grete: Yes. Patty: So you major in computer science, and French, and you mentioned you spend some time abroad. Are there any similarities with your two majors, or it is just two sides of your interests that you're pursuing? Grete: Yeah, it's a very strange combination, right? And especially in French I've done all the French literature. And that's been very... I've absolutely enjoyed the French courses that I've taken. And so it kind of became like naturally, because I just took them... I just felt like I needed next to computer science. I needed something that I can just discuss like what is the meaning of life and so on. Grete: And I love how French Philosophers answer those questions. So that was like my like high moments as well. And so I kind of felt like I could... The two sides of my brain could balance each other out well when I was combining these two. Which is a strange combination. It's not like I get credits for computer science doing French, or anything and it's like you actually have to take two separate majors. And although there are overlap suspicion not that I'm writing my thesis, it's very interesting, because in my French thesis I actually write about artificial intelligence. So I kind of make it come into one by myself. And I feel like that's kind of my treasure right now, because I'm super excited about my thesis, and I really like to investigate. Grete: I'm still in the research phase, but it's fascinating, because here you can do that, and that's exactly what I'm here for. I'm here to combine those together. Yeah. When I went abroad it was also... I went to Paris, so I spent the fall semester of my junior year in Paris. And there again I could actually combine those, because I was in France, I was studying in French, but I took computer science classes. So I was kind of like a meta level. I was doing artificial intelligence, which I hadn't done before, in French. So it's kind of double layered of learning experience, and it's fascinating. It's fantastic. It's really fun, and I had a great time and yeah, just I feel like what French gives me is this different perspective. Grete: It's just this kind of constant reminder to think in a different way so that if I get very caught up with computer science... Because at times it is challenging. At times you are very tired, and frustrated because it's tough. It's just a lot of work a lot of time put into those really like the core classes that we have for example. And at times I feel like this is what kind of reminded me of the fact that there are other things in the world, and this is not a big thing. Grete: And the, I don't know like [Foucault 00:51:44] or whoever we were reading at the time would bring me a whole different perspective on this, and it would kind of nicely come together and it's like... I don't even know how to call that. Catharsis I guess of truly learning. And I think me and my other French majors... So we have double majors in departments, they also feel the same way that it's just a kind of different way of understanding the world, right? Because computer science is also trying to understand the world and make sense out of it. It's just two vastly different approaches. And then bringing them together kind of makes you... Intellectually I feel like it's just like this gem that really enriches my life. Mark Wood: That's sort of what you set out to do when you came to a Liberal Arts College, right? I mean to combine things that don't necessarily go together obviously. Grete: Exactly, exactly. And it's strange, because especially when I... Like once I leave the Pomona campus, and I tell someone that I study computer science, and French, and they're like "So how does that work?" Alexandra: You just tell them- Grete: And they are like, "It's amazing." Alexandra: Did it. Grete: Yeah. Alexandra: It maybe music also. It's not just that- Grete: Yeah. It's true yeah because- [crosstalk 00:53:02] Alexandra: ... is also a child of Liberal Arts. Grete: I'm just like this is a place for me to be, because I did consider it for a while instead of French. I was considering music as my other major, because I've done music for a while. And when I came to Pomona, I picked up... My background was in, and at Pomona I picked up the clarinet, which yeah, I just came from the clarinet lesson actually here. So there's also this musical and kind of the arts side of it. Grete: And it's a true... It's such a privilege I think that I am able to do that all together, and that people understand that this has such a value and it is so unique. So definitely like music, literature, computer science, it's kind of creates like... For me it creates this kind of will that keeps me going. Yeah. And I think it just feeds into like all of those different fields as well. Mark Wood: So going back to mentorship, sort of our theme here. Grete have you had other important mentors here and Alexandra, are there mentors in your life that you look back on, and think they really changed your life? Alexandra: Do you want to answer first or I go? Grete: Mm-hmm (affirmative) Go ahead. Alexandra: [crosstalk 00:54:16] Give you some time. Patty: She didn't pick up your cue. Alexandra: I've been very lucky. I think that I had people throughout my I think school years, and afterwards in college people that supported me to go to the US, like, "You need to continue learning more about this thing," and that was always inspiring to know that there's no limitation in knowledge. I can always learn more. And also I know that I don't know everything. Alexandra: That's also great and humbling. My advisor I think was some... A person while I was in my PhD that Grete got to meet him at Chi. We took a picture with all the generations along the way. It was beautiful. But it's very nice to have people that believe you. And support you. Mark Wood: He's grad student, right? Alexandra: Yes, exactly. Yes. If Grete becomes a professor, we will have that cue going. Yeah a big family tree. Grete: No pressure. Alexandra: No pressure at all. Yeah. It's also beautiful to come to a new place like Pomona and see that there are mentors within Pomona, have people reach out to me when that was not their job. It was like out of, "Hey, we know that you're new. Do you want to come for dinner at home?" I was like, "Oh, it's so nice of you." I don't live here. But I know that people are more than willing to listen to me, and to support me as a junior faculty. And we have that both informal ways in the department, in the college. Alexandra: But I think also informally the community has been very warm. And that's again, like going back to being at a small place that you feel like you matter, people matter. That kind of in their personal relationship manifests itself again and again. Grete: It's true. It's true that at times it feels like we're all each other's mentors, because in the end, since we have this friendship literally between students and professors you can always... I feel like I can always go to my professors, and ask anything that I feel like asking, or if I need help, or if I need some advice. Everybody is so open about this. And so it's not even a question. It's just like, it normally just comes up in a conversation. It's not like you would beg for help or anything, it's just that you talk about other things as well. It's not just about like, "Did you get the problems at none." Grete: It's also going beyond, especially in terms of career advice and so on. It's super important to have those moments when you just kind of go back and forth in terms of trying to figure out what could be the next path be, what are the different options in this discipline and broadening your kind of horizon in this way. I definitely also would like to thank perhaps my, my French advisor. So since I'm a double major, I also have two advisors, and that's what I saw. Grete: And that professor Abecassis and he has also helped me a lot just in terms of finding my place in here. And I feel like that was the first French literature class that I took in here was with him. And so I kind of got into this whole French literature kind of obsession I guess from this first class as it was with computer science. So having him and then Alexandra as my advisors, I feel like I have always someone to go to, and this is super important actually. It's just I don't think I recognize it often enough myself, but how much this gives us the fact that we are always very much safeguarded in a way. Grete: I feel like my professors would always notice if there is something not quite right, or if you didn't perform up to what you are normally doing, they would recognize that and be like, "Okay, is there something. Can we do something?" It's not just about what you can do yourself to be a better student in order to perform well or do better. It's also about what the professors can do better. And that's something that is not obvious, especially if I reflect back on my study abroad experience in Paris where it's a very different system of course. Like there is no reason exactly to make it parallel, but there is definitely a huge difference when you have a professor who just comes, teaches, leaves and does their own research, which is totally valid, right? Grete: This is also a whole different way of being a professor. But being a professor is like, is it a whole wholistic kind of a position, right? It's a position of... How do you call it? Like also support and that's unique. And I think yeah, I would like to... I'm grateful for all my professors actually, because they all in one way or another, they have helped me to figure out what I want to do with my life, and what I want to pursue later on. It's definitely very unique to Pomona as well. Alexandra: I did not have this experience as an undergraduate student. I remember the first time I did start to a professor and he was like, "You talk to my TA, I don't talk to students." What? Grete: Oh my God. Alexandra: It was different. I said, "Okay, I don't want to be that person." I knew that I liked teaching- [crosstalk 00:59:47] Grete: I don't even think that I could ask that question. Like the professor just left, and I'm like, "Oh well, I didn't-" [crosstalk 00:59:52] Alexandra: No he told me that- Grete: Just like, "Okay. That's it." Okay cool. Alexandra: Its very different. And I think all of us... I see that with every single colleague that I have that people are dedicated and they're... We're all here because we care not just about teaching, not just about research. We care about who is standing across the room. And it's very nice to see that people trust you, and come to your office and they will ask you about a technical thing where they're stuck, and they'll also ask you for advice. And that means that they do trust you and that your opinion matters. And of course that's like a lot of responsibility to feel like, "Okay, I hope I'm not going to give the wrong advice," right? Alexandra: But the fact that there are multiple sources of advice makes me feel like of course everyone will get what they need. Yes. Patty: Finally, any advice that you guys have for students thinking about computer science, or as both of you have an international background. Any students considering Liberal Arts Colleges? Alexandra: Do it if its for liberal arts. I wish if I were to somehow turn time back, I would love to do exactly what Grete is doing. Be able to explore, and for students that want to do computer science, because it's a very popular major right now, do it, but continue taking classes like no matter what the environment you're in. It's so beautiful to be able to stay always curious and keep learning and keep thinking. Alexandra: Okay. It's not a siloed thing. It does communicate with so many things. It does have a profound effect on the lives of people. So I think it's nice to pick a place like Pomona, because it does encourage that throughout I think every class that you take. But it shakes you a bit, because you're like, "Oh, I never thought of that thing." And suddenly it appears everywhere, and suddenly it makes it look like it's very important and I have to keep thinking about it. Alexandra: Being an international student, I mean, I came in a different phase in my life. I was a bit older, but it can be challenging and at the same time it can be extremely rewarding, because you have suddenly people that you want think of being friends back home. You also feel maybe close with international students. Just the fact that they're international, makes you feel closer to them and you're like, "Oh wow, there are so many similarities across cultures." Right? Alexandra: And my best friends are from India. We always make jokes about, "Oh yeah, our parents are seeing exactly the same things." And it's fantastic to be like, okay. There's something in humanity that connects everyone. And it goes... It transcends... It goes beyond backgrounds, and it's also very beautiful to be, "Oh. US is not monolithic thing that I had an impression of when I was back in Europe. Alexandra: It's a very diverse environment and as Grete was saying at the beginning being California, I think that's fantastic, because at Pomona, you have so many diverse backgrounds of faculty of students. It's constantly being reminded that we're all kind of the same, and at the same time we're all so different, and that's the beauty I think of it. Grete: I agree. Liberal Arts College, I would do it. Like I mean I'm here, I'm here for a reason. I took me almost a year to figure it out. But I think that was the... Especially for people who are more... Lets say whose interests span a lot more than just one field. I think it can be frustrating for people who are very set in their field, let's say becoming especially for international students, wanting to become a doctor for example, or going into medicine or... It can be frustrating at times. Grete: You feel that, that's the one thing that you want to do and then you have to do gazillion other things, because people are different, right? It's like I know that I'm the kind of one extreme of this. Like let me... Give me like all of those different things and I would be super invested in almost all of them, and I want to learn as much as I can. So it really depends on also the kind of person. The personal preference in terms of being more singular, or being more horizontal kind of in the horizon, of different interests you can have. Grete: But at the same time I feel like even those people who have the idea that this is what I want to do for the rest of my life. I'm settled. I just want to go to like a great school. I still think that they should do arts, because I still think that we need that. I think the world needs that. We need to kind of break away from this idea that this is what I picked as my field, so now I'm going to do that. And I'm great at that, but I don't really know what's anything else. Grete: Perhaps you can read of course things with how much time do you actually have outside of what you're mostly spending your time on doing extra things? It's very minimal, so during this four years that we have in here having this broad spectrum of things that you can already choose from, which is interesting, because you have to think about what do I, what am I interested? What can I... How can I enrich my experience in here? What's the... Grete: What are the things I would never do, for example, which is often I hear people asking it here. It's like, Oh, like this is something that I do because otherwise I wouldn't do it. And if I wasn't a Pomona, I wouldn't do it. And I think that's very cool. I think that's kind of like breaking out of also what you already know, what you already thought you were going for and it's kind of refreshing to just like be constantly questioning yourself. I think it says it's just essential. What was the other question? Patty: International student- Grete: Computer science. I think computer science... First of all, I think everybody should try it. I think that is... There are some skills that are, and for the future, and that is kind of... It's very neat to have them, and it's also very empowering. I think just having the kind of basic computer science skill is just something that you feel like, "Oh I have something that I can do. I can physically code this thing for example." And it's very nice as a feeling. And yet I would like to also encourage people to think critically, and be more... Grete: Because there are a lot of people who go into computer science, because at the moment it is very prestigious. It's very well regarded in terms of what are the job opportunities, et cetera. But I think we have to be more critical in terms of like, why are we doing this? It's like as it... Because it can become also very frustrating when you are facing those questions. Like those ethical questions for example, that Alexandra was talking about. And then do you feel like you don't even know if you are... Grete: If you're coding, or working as a future software developer for the right thing, or if that what you're doing is meaningful at all. And in that sense thinking about the different fields that are inside the computer science, that is crucial I think. And that's why I really appreciated Pomona. We have a huge variety of different research disciplines in terms of like the professors being en-caged in. We have, Alexandra with human on computer interaction. Grete: We have natural language processing, we have systems, we have... Every single professor has their own kind of specialty, and that is something that I think, or really undergraduates should think about. Like what is something that... Something specific that I can always go more deeper into, and kind of investigate from closer, and in that sense, like a research experience. It's just the SAP is perfect for that I think. Yeah. Alexandra: Yeah. It's quite critical. But people do have some understanding of computer science, some computational skills, like the workplaces are changing and it's quite nice to do it regardless. Am I going to be in humanities and social sciences, or in the STEM fields, but you don't have to stay within computer science. If you do stay within it, I think it's a beautiful world. Alexandra: And we do have fare capable faculty here, and all of us have different research interests, which is quite nice, because it means that three doors in it, "Oh, you're going to have such a like vast diverse kind of knowledge coming from people. Yeah. I think that Grete covered me. I think the SAP is... And I see that not of course, only within computer science, it's a wonderful experience that Pomona students have been getting into somehow and really understanding something in more depth than making it their own. Mark Wood: So on that note, we're going to wrap this up. Our thanks to Grete Helena Kutt, class of 2020, and professor Alexandra Papoutsaki. Alexandra: Thank you so much. Mark Wood: Thank you Prof. Alexandra: Thank you for the invitation. Patty: Thank you. Alexandra: Wonderful thanks. Patty: And to all have stuck with us this far, thanks for listening to Sage cast the podcasts of Pomona college. Until next time.